Combat decks - bloat or bash?

[Bunter]

Picking up a few points from the Punch or Lunch thread...

If we accept for sake of discussion that...

1> a combat deck wants to take the game to a 3 way ASAP
2> a combat deck needs to survive its pretator
3> a combat deck does not want to annihilate its predator

This leaves the tricky proposition - how much to smash your predator in to enusre you meet the target of point 2> but dont make point 3> happen.

Too much and they capitulate and die to their predator, leaving you with a new untouched pred with +6 pool and +1VP. Too little and they threaten to oust you - not good.

Maybe the assumption that you need to smash your predator in is NOT valid, perhaps the best way to deal with point 2> is not to backrush (exclusivly) but?? very large bloat?

I'm not sure, I think in most cases some backrush is a good idea as its the main theme of the deck anyhow so there are no problems with cycling etc, but I do think it might be worth thinking about mass bloat as another way of dealing with threatening predators...

or maybe not

Ant

[Rob Treasure]

Picking up a few points from the Punch or Lunch thread...

If we accept for sake of discussion that...

1> a combat deck wants to take the game to a 3 way ASAP
2> a combat deck needs to survive its pretator
3> a combat deck does not want to annihilate its predator

This leaves the tricky proposition - how much to smash your predator in to enusre you meet the target of point 2> but dont make point 3> happen.

Too much and they capitulate and die to their predator, leaving you with a new untouched pred with +6 pool and +1VP. Too little and they threaten to oust you - not good.

Maybe the assumption that you need to smash your predator in is NOT valid, perhaps the best way to deal with point 2> is not to backrush (exclusivly) but?? very large bloat?

I'm not sure, I think in most cases some backrush is a good idea as its the main theme of the deck anyhow so there are no problems with cycling etc, but I do think it might be worth thinking about mass bloat as another way of dealing with threatening predators...

or maybe not

Ant

*rubs chin*

Quite right my learned friend, quite right. I think Pool gain is a great catch-all defence. The assumption that you don't need to protect your vamps (they are HARD) is there so you have a small amount of space for 'defence'.

What do you propose for this pool gen? For this Miguel deck I half built last night the pool/blood gain will be pretty good but you'll need to spend quite a bit on Miguels special and just 'combat' in general.

Lots of tastes is gold here but there comes a point even in an ideal game when taste falls flat as no one has much blood.

In short, without radical deck additions (Parity Shift for example) and changes there ain't many options for BIG bloat.

[Bunter]

Picking up a few points from the Punch or Lunch thread...

If we accept for sake of discussion that...

1> a combat deck wants to take the game to a 3 way ASAP
2> a combat deck needs to survive its pretator
3> a combat deck does not want to annihilate its predator

This leaves the tricky proposition - how much to smash your predator in to enusre you meet the target of point 2> but dont make point 3> happen.

Too much and they capitulate and die to their predator, leaving you with a new untouched pred with +6 pool and +1VP. Too little and they threaten to oust you - not good.

Maybe the assumption that you need to smash your predator in is NOT valid, perhaps the best way to deal with point 2> is not to backrush (exclusivly) but?? very large bloat?

I'm not sure, I think in most cases some backrush is a good idea as its the main theme of the deck anyhow so there are no problems with cycling etc, but I do think it might be worth thinking about mass bloat as another way of dealing with threatening predators...

or maybe not

Ant

*rubs chin*

Quite right my learned friend, quite right. I think Pool gain is a great catch-all defence. The assumption that you don't need to protect your vamps (they are HARD) is there so you have a small amount of space for 'defence'.

What do you propose for this pool gen? For this Miguel deck I half built last night the pool/blood gain will be pretty good but you'll need to spend quite a bit on Miguels special and just 'combat' in general.

Lots of tastes is gold here but there comes a point even in an ideal game when taste falls flat as no one has much blood.

In short, without radical deck additions (Parity Shift for example) and changes there ain't many options for BIG bloat.

Yup, options are limited and it would need to be BIG bloat.

I think backrush will always factor, you cant let anyones deck work perfectly as IME If I have a pool offensive deck working well you can bloat all you like - I will out pace you. But I do worry about killing predators too much with combat and good bloat would give you a solid cushion soas to not have to do that.

What is there then...

con boon - no, no chance
dolls/taste - no not BIG enough
parity shit - in some decks I think thats a good option EuroBruj eg

urm

Any ideas?

[squidalot]

It really depends on the style I think
-a tupdog or warghoul deck can potentially controls an entire table (arguably a tupdog has to) & can therefore afford to stomp backwards.

-a deck with dom can avoid hitting its predator so hald & can therefore focus on the win
(like that dull dragon's breath weenie dom deck, where this counts as combat in their environs of the EC).

-any deck with perma rush can afford additional card space for bloat/bleed/vote defence.


Bloat
-Parity shift really only work with brujah (debate or just princes).
Anthaema is a possibility as well but generally a bit poo.
-Con boon would also be workable here I think (see Matt Morgan's recent debate deck for an example).

-tribute is bad with weenies as it cuts down your actions too much.

-govern/enchant i think is strong depending on the crypt options (Dom pot is workable). The multiuse aspect is very important.

-blood/vessels/minion taps aren't so good as no regular income stream (taste being too variable and an oft-cycled card at long range for instance).
They also take up masters slots which is annoying.

Sabbat
Sabbat rush is strong as you have miguel, yawp court (so good defence!) and hungry coyote which might be a useful addition.

Summary
This is why combat decks don't generally make it to 'Tier 1'

[Rob Treasure]

Yup, options are limited and it would need to be BIG bloat.

I think backrush will always factor, you cant let anyones deck work perfectly as IME If I have a pool offensive deck working well you can bloat all you like - I will out pace you. But I do worry about killing predators too much with combat and good bloat would give you a solid cushion soas to not have to do that.

What is there then...

con boon - no, no chance
dolls/taste - no not BIG enough
parity shit - in some decks I think thats a good option EuroBruj eg

urm

Any ideas?

Not many...

Weenie (pot or ani?) with Tribute works a charm but again, is it enough? I think the best fit in my mind at the moment seems to be loads of different blood gainers with Dolls and maybe Minion Taps for panic stations.

Stuff like Carvers, LOTS of taste (8-10, maybe more), Rack, Heck even Coven, it's going to help you with all that taste flying around... few other minor options that are helpful in the right situation like Big Game.

Out of interest my POT dom/DOM deck has only 6 Deflects and 7 Governs (it's a bit of a crypt machine too) so in that respect, it bloats from its actions as well and could easily become a bigger focus.... 8,9 Governs say.

Personally I think the key is more perm bleed and masses of combat rather than the other way round, as a side note too.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[DocSeven]

Any ideas?

Provision of the Silsila + Minion Tap (needs Assamites)
Renewed Vigor + Minion Tap (needs Obeah)
Specialization (for decks playing 20+ of a single combat card)

WW tried to go into the right direction with Bounty (unfortunately not far enough, Bounty just sucks).

[squidalot]

I think bounce is pretty essential for three reasons.

One it lowers the odds of you being the 'sink'.
Two it really is a good way of ousting your prey as hopefully they won't be able to boune anymore.
Three it allows you to adapt yourself to the table, i.e. you don't need to jump out of the box at the start and can wait for the right moment.

[Bunter]

Yup, options are limited and it would need to be BIG bloat.

I think backrush will always factor, you cant let anyones deck work perfectly as IME If I have a pool offensive deck working well you can bloat all you like - I will out pace you. But I do worry about killing predators too much with combat and good bloat would give you a solid cushion soas to not have to do that.

What is there then...

con boon - no, no chance
dolls/taste - no not BIG enough
parity shit - in some decks I think thats a good option EuroBruj eg

urm

Any ideas?

Not many...

Weenie (pot or ani?) with Tribute works a charm but again, is it enough? I think the best fit in my mind at the moment seems to be loads of different blood gainers with Dolls and maybe Minion Taps for panic stations.

Stuff like Carvers, LOTS of taste (8-10, maybe more), Rack, Heck even Coven, it's going to help you with all that taste flying around... few other minor options that are helpful in the right situation like Big Game.

Out of interest my POT dom/DOM deck has only 6 Deflects and 7 Governs (it's a bit of a crypt machine too) so in that respect, it bloats from its actions as well and could easily become a bigger focus.... 8,9 Governs say.

Personally I think the key is more perm bleed and masses of combat rather than the other way round, as a side note too.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Ive been thinking (dangerous I know) and I suspect that maybe.. maybe the way to go is a GASP! vote based bloat angle.

My thoughts have gone this far to date...

Nosfe royalty means I can reasonably assume to have 5 votes on table by the mid game.

I can rush specific targets as I have OBF and I have Archon.

I can then vote myself a bunch of pool??

Granted this is all very not solid :O) and really stops being a combat deck + bloat and more of a toolbox deck, but I like the idea of a combat deck that uses targeted rush and votes for bloat. I LIKE IT.

Perhaps a new topic..

[mikelosaurus]

What is there then...

con boon - no, no chance
dolls/taste - no not BIG enough
parity shit - in some decks I think thats a good option EuroBruj eg

The following combined with Blood Doll/Vessel/Minion Tap/Tribute:

- Hunting with Hungry Coyote
- The Rack
- Perfectionist (or another archetype)
- Palatial Estate
- Restoration
- Entrenching
- The Fifth Tradition
- Procurer
- Coven
- Blood of the Sabbat
- Careful use of Games of Instinct
- Provision of the Silsila (Assamites only)
- Sacrificial Lamb
- Ritual of the Bitter Rose
- Giant's Blood
- Renewed Vigor (Salubri only)
- Concert Tour (DoC only)

There's also:

- Frontal Assault
- Powerbase Montreal
- Gangrel/Toreador/Tremere/!Brujah/!Nosferatu transfer master locations
- Failsafe
- King's Rising
- Anathema
- Ancient Influence
- Political Stranglehold
- Art Scam (!Tor only)
- Backwards Govern etc.
- High Museum of Art
- Khobar Towers (Setites only)
- Dreams of the Sphynx
- Investment master cards

Just a random list to get the old' brain cogs turning

[Bunter]

Yup, options are limited and it would need to be BIG bloat.

I think backrush will always factor, you cant let anyones deck work perfectly as IME If I have a pool offensive deck working well you can bloat all you like - I will out pace you. But I do worry about killing predators too much with combat and good bloat would give you a solid cushion soas to not have to do that.

What is there then...

con boon - no, no chance
dolls/taste - no not BIG enough
parity shit - in some decks I think thats a good option EuroBruj eg

urm

Any ideas?

Not many...

Weenie (pot or ani?) with Tribute works a charm but again, is it enough? I think the best fit in my mind at the moment seems to be loads of different blood gainers with Dolls and maybe Minion Taps for panic stations.

Stuff like Carvers, LOTS of taste (8-10, maybe more), Rack, Heck even Coven, it's going to help you with all that taste flying around... few other minor options that are helpful in the right situation like Big Game.

Out of interest my POT dom/DOM deck has only 6 Deflects and 7 Governs (it's a bit of a crypt machine too) so in that respect, it bloats from its actions as well and could easily become a bigger focus.... 8,9 Governs say.

Personally I think the key is more perm bleed and masses of combat rather than the other way round, as a side note too.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Ive been thinking (dangerous I know) and I suspect that maybe.. maybe the way to go is a GASP! vote based bloat angle.

My thoughts have gone this far to date...

Nosfe royalty means I can reasonably assume to have 5 votes on table by the mid game.

I can rush specific targets as I have OBF and I have Archon.

I can then vote myself a bunch of pool??

Granted this is all very not solid :O) and really stops being a combat deck + bloat and more of a toolbox deck, but I like the idea of a combat deck that uses targeted rush and votes for bloat. I LIKE IT.

Perhaps a new topic..

Stop the Press!!!!

When the fuck did this card hit the shelves!!

Perpetual Care -- Type: Political Action -- Cost: None -- Text: Successful referendum means each Methuselah burns 2 pool for each dude in torpor

THat looks like FUN in something like nosfe vote...

Ant

(of course parity shift is probably still better)

[Bunter]

Any ideas?

Provision of the Silsila + Minion Tap (needs Assamites)
Renewed Vigor + Minion Tap (needs Obeah)
Specialization (for decks playing 20+ of a single combat card)

WW tried to go into the right direction with Bounty (unfortunately not far enough, Bounty just sucks).

Revnewed Vig and taps is worthy of consideration I think - its grand enough in scale to potentially work as a alternative to backrushing.

ant

[Huruem]

Some friends tried unsuccesfully to play it, but might be worth it... (for back ousting it's great though...)

Perpetual care I meant.

[Bunter]

What is there then...

con boon - no, no chance
dolls/taste - no not BIG enough
parity shit - in some decks I think thats a good option EuroBruj eg

The following combined with Blood Doll/Vessel/Minion Tap/Tribute:

- Hunting with Hungry Coyote
- The Rack
- Perfectionist (or another archetype)
- Palatial Estate
- Restoration
- Entrenching
- The Fifth Tradition
- Procurer
- Coven
- Blood of the Sabbat
- Careful use of Games of Instinct
- Provision of the Silsila (Assamites only)
- Sacrificial Lamb
- Ritual of the Bitter Rose
- Giant's Blood
- Renewed Vigor (Salubri only)
- Concert Tour (DoC only)

There's also:

- Frontal Assault
- Powerbase Montreal
- Gangrel/Toreador/Tremere/!Brujah/!Nosferatu transfer master locations
- Failsafe
- King's Rising
- Anathema
- Ancient Influence
- Political Stranglehold
- Art Scam (!Tor only)
- Backwards Govern etc.
- High Museum of Art
- Khobar Towers (Setites only)
- Dreams of the Sphynx
- Investment master cards

Just a random list to get the old' brain cogs turning

I think we can pretty much forget the blood doll options - its just not going to be enough to stop an aggressive predator.

It needs to be something more dramatic.

Ant

[ICL]

I don't know which thread this is better to post under, but here are some TWDs from this year that seem relevant:

Slovak European Championship Qualifier 2008
Bratislava, Slovak Republic
April 12, 2008
46 players
3R + F

Tournament Winning Deck

Deck Name : I like to Rumble
Author : David Wittmann

Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 1 max: 10 average: 7.08333
------------------------------------------------------------
4x Hektor 9 CEL POT PRE QUI for priscus !Brujah:4
3x Armin Brenner 10 CEL FOR POT PRE ani obf archbishop !Brujah:4
2x Miguel Santo Domingo 7 POT PRE cel for !Brujah:3
1x Caroline Bishops 3 cel for pot Pander:4
1x Jaggedy Andy 1 pot Pander:4
1x Kai Simmons 1 cel Pander:4

Library [90 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Action [7]
2x Preternatural Strength
5x Rumble

Action Modifier [16]
6x Forced March
4x Freak Drive
6x Iron Glare

Action Modifier/Combat [9]
6x Resist Earth's Grasp
3x Ritual of the Bitter Rose

Ally [1]
1x Mylan Horseed (Goblin)

Combat [32]
7x Amaranth
2x Disarm
9x Immortal Grapple
4x Pursuit
2x Skin of Steel
2x Slam
3x Soak
3x Superior Mettle

Equipment [1]
1x Heart of Nizchetus

Master [16]
1x Black Forest Base
2x Dreams of the Sphinx
1x Giant's Blood
7x Minion Tap
2x Monster
1x Sudden Reversal
1x Tension in the Ranks
1x Wash

Political Action [8]
1x Ancient Influence
6x Dogs of War
1x Political Stranglehold

I was stunned when this first got posted to the newsgroup. Wouldn't be the first time.

Czech National Championsip 2008
Brno, Czech Republic
7th June 2008
30 players

Gyula Erdos' Tournament Winning Deck took 3VP + GW in the final.

Deck Name : Czech NC 2008 TWD
Author : Gyula Erdos

Crypt [13 vampires] Capacity min: 2 max: 7 average: 4.69231
------------------------------------------------------------
2x Nikolaus Vermeulen 7 POT ani for obf prince Nosferatu:2
2x Calebros, The Martyr 5 ANI obf pot prince Nosferatu:2
1x Murat 7 OBF POT ser prince Nosferatu:2
1x Duck 3 obf pot Nosferatu:1
1x KoKo 2 pot Nosferatu:1
2x Volker, The Puppet Prince 5 CEL pot prince Brujah:2
1x Rake 6 PRE aus cel pot prince Brujah:1
1x Hector Sosa 4 POT pre Brujah:1
1x Dre, Leader of the Cold Dawn 3 cel pot Brujah:1
1x Lupo 2 pot Brujah:1

Library [90 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Action [10]
2x Blood Hunt
6x Bum's Rush
2x Fourth Tradition: The Accounting

Combat [40]
4x Disarm
2x Earthshock
1x Glancing Blow
11x Immortal Grapple
3x Slam
5x Target Vitals
6x Taste of Vitae
1x Thrown Sewer Lid
7x Torn Signpost

Master [14]
1x Archon Investigation
1x Depravity
1x Dreams of the Sphinx
2x Fame
3x Haven Uncovered
1x Labyrinth, The
1x Oxford University, England
1x Pentex(TM) Subversion
1x Powerbase: Montreal
1x Storm Sewers
1x Warzone Hunting Ground

Political Action [15]
2x Anathema
1x Brujah Justicar
5x Kine Resources Contested
1x Nosferatu Justicar
5x Parity Shift
1x Praxis Seizure: Rome

Reaction [11]
11x Second Tradition: Domain

Note: no Legendary Vampire. More of a hybrid Nos Prince combat and weenie Potence.

[Rob Treasure]

To add to the discussion for us returning players....

Ant, add this to the stuff !bru can do!

Dogs of War
!Bru
Political Action - worth one bean etc
If this referendum passes, put this card in play. Any Brujah antitribu may enter combat with a ready minion as a (D) action. You may burn this card to cancel a blood hunt called on a Brujah antitribu. Any vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action.

Interesting. Not a lot of crossover for vote push and keeping it on the table but still.